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joshcorris In reply to thepagansun [2013-08-23 00:01:56 +0000 UTC]

Did you know Agamemnon personally?  I think you're a little too severely offended by my assessment of him.  I encourage disagreement with my sometimes very one-sided appraisals of character, but there's no need to get so emotional, brother.

Anyway, I just now reread my description of Agamemnon, and I understand I didn't cut him much slack, but I was primarily trying to portray the attitudes toward Agamemnon generated by later generation of Greeks, namely the philosophers.  For years Agamemnon had been hailed as a a hero and a great commander, but later generations of Greeks reconsidered his actions and generally developed a bleak perception of his character.  And, trifle you as it may, that is more or less the perception of Agamemnon that has been accepted by readers of the story since, myself included.  However, as this is an arbitrary debate and everyone is free to perceive Agamemnon as they would like, I welcome your case in defense of his character.  Next time, just remember we're only discussing (possibly) fictional characters, or at least characters as they are being portrayed in an epic poem, so try and state your case with a little less furor.

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thepagansun In reply to joshcorris [2013-09-22 19:15:14 +0000 UTC]

Ok. Maybe my words were a tad bit harsh but that's because EVERYONE and their mom always hate on Agamemnon. Like seriously. In every movie, book, etc. he's always the villain and it's the same tired song. Agamemnon was "greedy" blah blah. When in The Iliad, the original book of the Trojan War, he was actually portrayed as a very deep character that had virtues and flaws like everyone else. I mean, the one thing Agamemnon had to deal with that no oe else did was that he was commander in chief. Everyone else might've been a warrior and king in their own right, but Agamemnon had that whole other level of burden. He was responsible for the army as a whole. And most people don't seem to understand that other level to him. The whole reason he sacrificed his daughter wasn't because he failed as a father, but because he succeeded as successful commander in chief that the army could follow. He showed that he was willing to forgo personal loss and put his army's needs first. Everyone else just seem to hate on him for sacrificing his daughter (yet ironically most modern audiences sure love Abraham for almost doing the same thing!) or blaming him for his quarrel with Achilles when Achilles himself was as much to blame. 

Well...I don't think it was later Greek audiences that portrayed him badly but mostly modern audiences who don't quite understand the ancient pagan world. The ancient Greeks loved Agamemnon and dedicated a temple/shrine to him under Zeus Agamemnon in Sparta (a few hundred years later than the Bronze Age which shows that he was STILL admired by the Greeks centuries later). You don't do that to someone you don't think is worthy. If anything, it was ODYSSEUS the Athenian playwrights didn't like since they were forever wary of wily people that use rhetoric to persuade the masses and they didn't portray him nicely in their plays. I'm a classicist so I've researched these things...

But yes, sorry I was harsh but seeing my favorite epic character constantly hated on and one-dimensional made me angry. Especially when Odysseus, Ajax, Achilles, Hector, etc. all did pretty horrible things themselves and people seem to coo-coo for them. : /

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joshcorris In reply to thepagansun [2013-12-04 02:25:13 +0000 UTC]

Okay, this is becoming a very interesting conversation.  I think the moral of the debate is that every character is subject to interpretation.  I meant to suggest that in time, even in BC Greece, and particularly around the time when democracy was beginning to flourish, some philosophers and playwrights were beginning to reassess the Greek folk stories and god myths, and many, who had adapted much more pacifistic attitudes, began to regard characters like Achilles, and even the god Ares, as being antagonistic.  Obviously, this theory did not resound throughout Greece.  Nations like Macedonia and Sparta remained very warlike, and probably perceived Agamemnon as being an astute general who was willing to make any sacrifice in the name of fulfilling his duty, and would have revered him for it, while they likely would have looked to Achilles as being a big baby and a derelict who let his emotions interfere with his duty.  And while some philosophers and playwrights began to apply liberal themes to the classic Greek tales, essentially rewriting many characters, many philosophers, including Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, remained staunch conservatives, and highly disapproved of such efforts to cast characters like Achilles or Ares in a poor light.  And it's likely to surmise that those same big three philosophers would indeed have seen in Odysseus that kind of lecherous character that they viewed in comedians and other satirists which they felt ultimately conduced to insurrection among the people (a thing they did not approve of).  I guess it's ultimately relative more to the mindset of the individual than the mindset of a populace in a particular area: i.e. Plato hated Athenian democracy and the surmounting attitudes of skepticism towards gods and government, while much of Athens at that time was embracing new ideas of democracy and passivity.

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thepagansun In reply to joshcorris [2013-12-05 04:40:19 +0000 UTC]

Oh I see. And yes, I agree that every character is up for interpretation but it annoys me when in most cases mostly due to popular inaccurate media people just automatically assume instead of looking at the actual sources. And Ares although a Greek god of war and thus necessary was never particulary loved in Greece. They worshipped him, but didn't pay him the same honors as say Athena or Zeus. Even in The Iliad, Ares gets yelled at by Zeus and beaten up by Athena. So yeah...he's was never really a prime example. Mostly the reason being because as Zeus tells him, he was a god of just war, anger, strife (like his sister Eris) whereas Athena was goddess of war but also wisdom, weaving, crafts, etc. Basically, the Greeks believed war was necessary and many city-states were quite good at it, but it was never really something to uphold above everything else which was why even in military states like Sparta the worship of Ares never rivalled the worship of Athena or Zeus. 

But yes. I see your basic point. Especially since most of the playwrights and philosophers were Athenian and thereby honoring war more as it pertained to their needs and honored the arts more out of sincere love for them. And yeah no worries! I completely agree that each character is up for interpretation but usually when it comes to modern portrayals of Agamemnon, he's just used as the scape-goat for Helen and Paris' love affair. I mean, I'm not trying to make you agree with me or anything, just to explain why those other people get me mad. 

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