hairama In reply to magnus272 [2019-11-21 17:49:51 +0000 UTC]

depends on the artist, the order, etc.

Usually commercial rights aren't included, or are more expensive. And it's not just like that when buying art from someone on dA. All professional artists & companies have a different price & license for commercial vs. non-commercial orders (basically 'yeah, you can profit from this order' vs 'no you't profit from it') which is entirely fair. It's assumed that if you're buying a piece WITH commercial rights you'll be making back what you paid the artist and then more. So it's fair for an artist to charge more because you're profitting off their hard work and they, at that point, are not. 

Usually though commissions are sold as 'personal use' which is to say you're recieving the rights to the piece except for selling it/using it to sell products.

It's more expensive to buy art with commercial rights than without. It's nothing like going to the museum and saying an art commission intended to release full rights (this is commercial + private rights) should be priced the same as a museum trip (i e. cheap as hell because you're 'leasing' the piece) is ridiculous. Commercial art commissions is no different than paying an author royalties everytime their work is published. In fact, that's part of the point of the licensing. You pay upfront for the commercial licenze with your artist so you don't have to pay them pennies-per-sale of the item later. 

It's pretty standard in the professional world for a difference in these license terms & prices, so it's fair & reasonable for a hobby artist selling commissons or an up-and-coming freelancer to have these rules too. For better examples check out the price difference for the licenses of artwork purchased on game-asset sites such as Graphicdriver - the licenses can range from $10 to $500 for a pak of art icons that can count 10-100 pieces. The price difference? in one license you cannot resell you final product using that art in any way, shape or form while in the other you can profit off your final product.

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hairama In reply to Fillyfalls [2015-03-12 00:10:47 +0000 UTC]

It's very easy to undervalue artwork ( especially digital artwork ) and most especially when the community around you wants to take advantage of you doing it. I treat Icons the same as I would a Logo. Logo's can be priced anywhere from $20 to $2000 ( literally ) because it takes a serious amount of effort to make a simple icon/logo. I spent more time on my logos when I was learning desktop publishing than I did on the advertisements/posters that went with the logos! Simplifying things and still portraying a concept takes  alot of work.

Add in animation to an icon and that's double the work and time ( because animation it takes time, effort and understanding just wtf you're freaking doing. I don't care if it's flash or a gif. you have to know what you're doing at least by the end of that first time! ) 150-200 makes me cringe when I see things like that. At the same time, if that's what you're happy with, that's what you're going to charge. 400 is right about where i'd put animated/non animated icons. Make it pixels and I'm going to wonder why the price isn't higher because that takes even more effort than anything else. Sitting there and cleaning up pixel lines takes soooo much time D8

people that come in and offer 20, 30 or 50 for something should be slapped. Seriously. That is someone that wants to take advantage of you and wants to rip you off. I don't care how nice they are. Now if it's someone that clearly doesn't understand/know points and was given them at random by people ( it happens. I've been randomly gifted 10 before by people wanting to be nice and been like 'where tehheck did this come from!? ) I can understand them offering ( or even asking about it and simply wording this weirdly ) but if it's some one that obviously knows/understands slap them I have had enough with people coming in that understand the value of things and saying 'well here's my two dimes, or here's my two nickles, or here have a penny' for art if that's what you want to pay then that is EXACTLY what you'll get.

when you're getting started lower prices is a-okay but it's always best to slowly build things up to a better range. Heck with the headshots you can still offer them at 100 but do it flat shaded. Shading = extra cost. Special details? = extra cost. Have it so that people can build the commission based on extras and costs and you'd still get your flat rate for something and it can be a rate you're happy with.

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Fillyfalls In reply to hairama [2015-03-12 00:27:58 +0000 UTC]

It's so cool that you're educated in those areas !! Honestly, I rarely hear from anyone remotely professional or experienced, especially on sites like this where people are extremely keen to get art for dirt cheap prices :/

Probably one of the reasons I mostly just do art for myself and my friends these days. Other people too, but as gifts. Because it's so much more worth it to do free art of characters I like for people I like then being underpaid for art I spend too much time on.

My pixels are no Picassos but even though I was quite game for low-ball offers on commissions in my earlier days, at this point, I actually feel kinda bad when people offer me prices south of 100 for my icons. Above 200 , I'll consider, because maybe they just don't have the funds on hand or are a student like me, and if I like the character enough, I'll accept it.
// throws these here as an example
   
4 times out of 5, for icons like these (that I'm not charging ridiculous prices for), people ask for discounts and whatnot, and then sound surprised when I ask for an additional 50 to cover complex designs (I'm not talking lots of stripes or whatever, I mean extra limbs or wings or whatnot that I'm supposed to fit into a 50x50 pixel) and it's a little disheartening. But there are the few people that actually pay the asked price and are totally polite and nice about it. And I appreciate them a lot.

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hairama In reply to kaons [2015-03-11 21:55:05 +0000 UTC]

there are always variables/factors to consider. I personally am trying to make it to freelance status which does require branching out. Most of the people that personally contact me for how to price their things are considering their commissions as their only form of income. When this is the case you have to take some of the above mentioned factors into account and accept that you have to charge higher rates, not always extreme rates.

I highly doubt many people will be happy charging by the hour. Most people aren't because it is just a hobby for them. But it isn't for me. I have gone through training ( one such - web design and desktop publishing. I AM certified in art and computers. I can, by my certifications, demand these higher prices but I really don't want to draft the contracts for it and the point of not taking a job at a company was I wanted to be free lance from the start. This became more important as my health issues arose. )

I wrote this to clarify for people, before they ask me for help, what they should stop and consider. It's a huge balancing act no matter how you look at it and not everyone is 'in the same league' or considers themselves to be. The most important thing people need to consider is 'am I making this my primary income or not?' if not then there's no need to factor time as hourly into it and instead work something else out there. If so then by god yes consider the time it takes! If this is primary income and you only make $10 on an image that takes you 8 hours then you only made $10 in a single work day. There's no way this can be primary income with that standard. 

My argument included material costs because I have had people tell me 'your art should be cheaper because you don't go buy materials' before. I do not like gimp from personal experience (some of my favorite artists use it) I have never done well with it and I use a mac. SAI is not exactly Mac friendly. The Computer type affects the software an artist can use. I am in the process of finding a new art program, but this takes time and experimenting- and money. While the computer is a one-time purchase it is still a large purchase and even when well cared for all computers do break down or get virus' or any number of issues (some may simply need memory upgrades and such) New fans, new graphics cards, etc. customizations can extend the life of the computer but they cost a LOT. My dad and I looked into that.

There is also the cost of tablets and replacement parts. I don't care how well cared for a tablet is pen nibs MUST be regularly replaced. It affects the response of the hardware, pen pressure, and scratches then surface as nibs wear away. Lost or damaged pens require replacement and I strongly recommend owning 2 pens anyway. This, still, was not the biggest argument. It was included to show people that just because we are not buying canvases and brushes and paints or pens, pencils and markers every time does not mean we have 'no material expenses'. 

For hobby artists this entire journal could be easily disregarded, and likely will, but I didn't write it to help hobby artists decide if $10 or $12 is the better charge. I wrote it for artists who are using their art as legitimate forms/sources of income to understand just how much they, and their customers, are cheating themselves. 

Professional freelancers and Company based artists do require a lot more information but this is also because time is money and the more time they have to spend on something redoing it the more the cost goes up and the final bill will be ridiculous. So they try to sort everything out as much as possible before doing the art. They also keep logged records of exactly how much time was spent on a specific project daily, or weekly, etc. This is how it should be with all artists (it would avoid corrections and 'redo' requests) but not everyone thinks about it. I'd be very surprised if there are a significant number of people with roleplays who will actually contact concept artists and such for artwork. That is exciting to hear about Helovia, btw, my add just went 'shiny red ball' so I'm injecting this in xD

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kaons In reply to hairama [2015-03-11 22:02:56 +0000 UTC]

"For hobby artists this entire journal could be easily disregarded, and likely will, but I didn't write it to help hobby artists decide if $10 or $12 is the better charge. I wrote it for artists who are using their art as legitimate forms/sources of income to understand just how much they, and their customers, are cheating themselves. "

Gotcha, babe!  
I think this resource is really good for people with training and/or are working toward professional status. 
For people like me though who have a job already and do this for fun, it's more a... EEEEHHHHH thing? I don't know. I am not a professional, so I don't feel comfortable charging people to compensate for my equipment. 

"They also keep logged records of exactly how much time was spent on a specific project daily, or weekly, etc. This is how it should be with all artists (it would avoid corrections and 'redo' requests) but not everyone thinks about it. "

Is SSSOOOO important. We need like an invoice thing for DA that's universal use. The invoicing system we use at work is super detailed, and we could fill out a project order form and have a matching invoice form. Maybe I'll do this and just upload my excel sheet


Congrats on your education! That's very exciting. 

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hairama In reply to kaons [2015-03-11 22:12:48 +0000 UTC]

yeah xD I got tired of explaining to people individually over and over LOL that's all

Personally I think you could but that's me looking at the quality of art you produce and going 'I would not flinch at the price if that went up' lol I completely understand what you mean, though. 

on the logs/invoice- this would be so beyond helpful it's unreal. It amazes me sometimes how one little spread sheet can change so much of what someone does and puts things into perspective. It would easilly cut down on miscommunications xD

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kaons In reply to hairama [2015-03-11 22:14:23 +0000 UTC]

I'll work on it  
I write spreadsheets/do invoicing/etc a bunch, so it wouldn't be hard to make one at all that's free for use. 
I'll load it once I am done! 

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hairama In reply to kaons [2015-03-11 22:20:13 +0000 UTC]

you are freaking fantastic

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kaons In reply to hairama [2015-03-13 19:10:08 +0000 UTC]

Of course DA won't let me upload .docx or .xls, so.... 

HERE YOU GO
Project Documentation  and 

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hairama In reply to kaons [2015-03-13 21:00:19 +0000 UTC]

Ohmygosh you're fantastic! definitely setting these up on both my comps now

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Lunarlueur In reply to bellequine [2015-03-13 04:46:17 +0000 UTC]

Flagged as Spam

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bellequine In reply to Lunarlueur [2015-03-13 07:45:20 +0000 UTC]

really? I'm surprised - I love your username!

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Lunarlueur In reply to bellequine [2015-03-13 13:06:11 +0000 UTC]

Flagged as Spam

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bellequine In reply to Lunarlueur [2015-03-13 20:27:31 +0000 UTC]

haha your by-line "your favourite creative cripple" actually always makes me laugh when I see it on your page :') but I see where you are coming from. I would think that for an artist like yourself who creates work professionally, you would need to have a professional username too, or something that shows you aren't just another equine artist, if you know what I mean? //why must usernames be so hard to come up with :L //

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hairama In reply to bellequine [2015-03-13 03:18:31 +0000 UTC]

Everyone asks at one point or another. I did when I started out but I also didn't stick with exactly what was said. I found a medium between what I thought and they thought and progressed from there. It worked out fairly well for me.

If you're happy then there's no need to change what you charge. I'm not saying go out and change, this was just a guide (and insight) journal. 

yes, sometimes usernames affect your chances. My old account was 'royalpain13' and I sold NOTHING. Changed it to 'Kimuntran' and suddenly I started getting -some- interest in my coms. It wasn't until my HARPG account and then this one that my stuff really sold though :/ and I've gone and cluttered this one up again xD need to clean up my account ohwell LOL

always charge in the currency you deal with. If you use GBP then charge for GBP and make sure people understand that this is what you charge IN. Trying to sort out what you want to charge in USD can lead to misscommunication  later on. I'd say if 5/6 seems too low to you then try 8/10 it's entirely up to you (:

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bellequine In reply to hairama [2015-03-13 20:23:27 +0000 UTC]

ok great, I'll definitely have a think about what to charge thank you for the help!

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hairama In reply to bellequine [2015-03-13 21:18:56 +0000 UTC]

No problem

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hairama In reply to DarkriseDivine [2015-03-15 22:22:27 +0000 UTC]

honestly altering, raising/lowering the prices is entirely up to the artist. I can't say you absolutely must do this, and I can't say 'no don't!' either. I'm just offering things I've learned/picked up on in my research for how to price my own commissions for others to help them out. 

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DarkriseDivine In reply to hairama [2015-03-16 07:25:51 +0000 UTC]

Nah its cool, I think on a website like this it is very easy to underpay people especially with the points system because its not like paying people with real money but the introduction of USD and GBP and all that makes it quite cheap as well and artists definitely deserve to be paid a lot but many consumers just don't want to.

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hairama In reply to RandomCatLady [2015-03-12 02:28:35 +0000 UTC]

O_O I did not think about anyones minimum wage potentially being that high o_O

honestly I think you should do what feels comfortable with you on your coms. I mean, I love your art and I think they're well worth the money and the fact that every time you produce something you're taking giant steps towards serious improvement is a huge thing. I'd think about whether those artists charging around $50 are hobby artists with a side of commissions or actually treating commissions as a source of legitimate income. If its not income I wouldn't even look at them for comparison because they're catering to a completely different crowd ( honestly they are. especially if you market to people outside of RP's )

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RandomCatLady In reply to hairama [2015-03-12 07:36:44 +0000 UTC]

Yea minimum is about 6 per hour. 
Most equine manipulators are hobbyists I think. And I actually need to start treating commissions as an income. I don't have any other job besides school and I don't have time for it either. With art I would be able to get it done cause I can decide when and how I work on it 

At the moment I charge 20 dollars and I got two commissions for that. But I consider that after my to do list is done, which are about 8 manip, I might raise to either 25 or 30 dollars, I would depend on the amount of progress I make quality wise I think. 

Also, I think this piece you wrote is really good. Maybe some time you can also write about people who put up journals every few weeks about "EMERGENCY COMMISSIONS"

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Lunarlueur In reply to EDENFABLE [2015-03-11 03:25:14 +0000 UTC]

Flagged as Spam

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EDENFABLE In reply to Lunarlueur [2015-03-11 11:29:53 +0000 UTC]

oh my gosh, I just want to say that you are a WONDERFUL, VERY professional artist! I mentioned in my post that I understand life happens - I should have elaborated on that for you! You have a completely valid reason for not pumping out art as often as others, and you have disclosed that so clearly! So with you, I expect and understand and accept that, because you've shared your timeline with me (: this is definitely not pointed at you. I'm more irked when someone tells me "2 weeks" and it takes 2 months, or "2 months" and it's taken 5 so far. Disclosure is so key!

I'm so sorry this saddened you. Please don't let it <3

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hairama In reply to EDENFABLE [2015-03-11 03:00:04 +0000 UTC]

Thank you so much <3 it's wonderful to hear from a consumer on this point! 

Time is a huge thing. If it's explicitly stated how soon the image will be completed then absolutely, get it done by then. If not then I do think people should be patience. Personally I try not to say when I will complete something, just how long that individual piece will take once I start it. This is because it may be last on my list and I may take longer with another and, as you said, life does happen. However if you're known to get something out within three months and it suddenly takes you six - I can understand a commissioner getting antsy about this!

I do know about the age comparison to people ordering with the horse and wolf art community and roleplayers, but there are enough adults in the community as well and plenty of room for people to move out of focussing on roleplayers to aim for people who aren't looking to collect art for roleplays but for other things. That does require branching out and you're right it requires balancing for what people do have available to buy things as well but that's part of the whole struggle with pricing and figuring things out :/ Artists need to consider their audiences and who they wish to market towards. There's a surprisingly large number of people that seem unaware of how broad the market actually is. They grow in a single niche and never look or branch out and it's shocking o_O
Why does my seemingly 10-hour commission have the same ending quality as the same artist's 2-hour commission??Depends on the images created. A simple brown horse in a meadow with minimal movement would only take 2 hours versus a flying horse with six horns and extreme movement/lighting. It's not to say the artist put less effort into one image over the other but that one simply was completed faster. It's happened with me, before. An image I thought would only take 2 hours took me 12 and then one that I thought would take 12 turned around and took only 6 hours to complete. It's weird how things like that turn out but there's a lot of factors ( and I don't watch movies/tv/anything while doing commissioned artwork, just use music because that's how I time things lol ) involved such as the stock and how much you have to redetail them/repaint/work to get them to cooperate.

but yeah lol there's a lot involved in all of this. A lot that neds to be understood/looked over. 

again thank you so much for bringing a consumer look into this <3

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hairama In reply to Ackerley [2015-03-11 01:55:41 +0000 UTC]

Lol this is a huge thing a LOT of people miss and since I'm not educated fully in it I chose not to touch on it. My point was strictly that artists are being undervalued. Most of the problem is undervaluing yourself as an artists coupled with people wanting to only spend pennies on an image tied into communities such as Nordanners where people want fast kaaring ( lots of images ) versus a good, quality image of the same price. These communities and the people typically purchasing in them are hurting the rest.

For example, I offered a serious SERIOUS discount on commissioned art for one of my drawing packages ( full bg, full shading, full hody, etc ) with 3 images in the package. Individually I normally charge $10 an image. I offered this deal for $15 and included animation because it was a 'kaaring requesf' for art. The person decided for the same amount of kaaring the three high quality images would havd provided they could get for $5 from another artist ( in a sheet, which when NOT IF Nordanners decide to stamp out kaaring farms again that will no longer count ) and started setting their decissions from artists offers to that standard. 

People are demanding as cheap as possible for quantity and quality instead of agreeing that the artist really deserves at least minimum wage for their art. I'm not looking at higher than that because professionals, unless they're very VERY high end really are scraping by at what amounts to minimum wage when all is said and done and most of thr artists who make a few hundred to a few thousand a pop are successful freelancers. Not salarymen. 

My entire rant is that people constantly ask a community which consistently underpays people because people,let them get away with it set the price standards. Not that its a supply/demand issue although this does come into play too. An artist who spend 10 hrs on a single,image should NOT only charge $10. Period. That is less than what a WAITRESS makes in a 10 hr shift. People are letting these people tell them 'no, only charge this' while at the same time paying literally $100+ on a DESIGN from another artist. And it's not low quality artists they're doing it to. It's any equine artist who asks the community for their opinions publicly. The trend is 'i dont want to so I shouldnt have to so if you want it to sell then cater to me' when most of these artists should put a foot down and say 'dont want to pay it? That's cool, then don't order from me. Someone else will.' The sad truth is people willing to pay $60+ an image in photomanipulation will not buy from an artist who charges $10. They'll see that price and go 'something has to be wrong. Maybe its low quality' and walk away. It's the same as with english saddles. While a western saddle can be marketed at $200 and be known to be high quality, good condition at s3cond hand an english saddle won't get a second glance in a shop for $200 second hand. I've seen THAT happen in person, IRL in my area.

People look at price and automatically think x-value half the time. My journal was to help these artists see what to consider when pricing their art and to show consumers what their demands are actually doing. You can't buy a poster in a store for less than $10. Why can't an artist ask for kore than $10?

I realize it's a hard thing to be a free lancer artist. You have to stick with it and fight. My dad has finally accepted that I'm serious about this and is supporting me while the rest of my family still asks me 'when are you getting a job' and look at me cross eyed when I tell them I HAVE full time job in art. I've been at it and making it a career for almost 8-9 years now. It wasn't until recently that it started to work out. And it wasn't until the last few months that I started making enough to actually look into declaring taxes on my art because in my State I didn't make enough in a year, let alone 1 month, to do that without it hurting me and so the state didn't demand it ( I'd have walked away $300 in the negative if I declared taxes on my art sales last year. ) 

Paypal automatically takes taxes out except in gift features and I try not to recieve things as gifts to make sure the taxes are covered but you're right. people do evade taxes on a perfectly taxable income.

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hairama In reply to Birandalyn [2015-03-11 05:17:54 +0000 UTC]

LOL dA points are the WORSE culprits for art devaluing. A lot of people don't know that dA lists 80 as equal to $1 ( dA takes 20 cents per dollar when converting money to points BUT NOT when converting points to money-> however if someone pays via. a conversionable widget and you turn THAT into points again at the end of the 2 weeks dA takes 20 cents per dollar all over again )
the reality is 100 = $1
but since so few people actually understand this conversion method there are those who take advantage of it and go '200 for a commission please?' and I've seen it. When I was first doing commissions after dA did 'points' people did that to me ALL the time and I was like 'no, 1) because I can't convert it back to money and 2) because I have no clue what points are'. After dA allowed it to be re-converted I laughed ( literally ) at people who tried to get a $10 commission for 200 It drives me absolutely crazy and is the quickest way to drive my temper up there to try and slide one over on an artist with alternate currency. 
Not only is that unfair to the artist in terms of being cheated out of their due payment it's a scam that also stabs and shreds their self confidence and self-worth. THAT pisses me off. When the scammed artist later finds out they lost money in that commission it does hurt them, badly, and that's another source for poorly pricing artwork. 

THEN there are those who ONLY want to use points rather than paypal to pay for commissions ( for a while there it was because dA would automatically refund the points if you complained even if it was unjustified meaning the artist didn't get paid a DIME for their hard work ). Some of these are the type of people who will complain and moan and cry if an artist refuses points as payment for an image. BUT It takes TWO WEEKS a FULL 14 DAYS for points to convert to currency and THEN another 3 days to guarantee the transfer to paypal WAS successful.

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Birandalyn In reply to hairama [2015-03-11 18:14:11 +0000 UTC]

People really REALLY need to pay attention to conversions of any type too. Like when you're negotiating prices, make sure you're talking on the same currency level. One time I got shortchanged by a customer because I was charging in US dollars and they only sent me the amount in their currency. And that's not okay either. With points though, I'm just not taking any orders based on those anymore. It's too convoluted and just isn't a good method for me.

In any physical form of art, you would still have to pay something for the custom piece, even if you weren't completely happy with the end result. It's the concept of a DEPOSIT on a service or custom item so you can't short an artist. We can't get that time back. Or the effort or the blood sweat and tears we put into the piece. People still owe us something for that.

And don't get me started on how terrible it feels when someone offers you minuscule amounts of points for your work. It's like being offered a gumball for a half a days work. I was offered 20 for one of my first commissions. It's just like... soul crushing. I understand that there's people out there that don't really have a lot to spend but I don't have enough that I can devalue my time and my work that much either.

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hairama In reply to Birandalyn [2015-03-12 00:02:40 +0000 UTC]

Yea, if people don't pay attention to conversion rates things can really get weird. Sometimes you can tell someone you only deal in USD after the fact if it was stated at least once elsewhere ( maybe on a commissions page ) and get them to pay up the difference. Some just won't. :/

As for Deposits-> not only that but they're used by the artist to go out and pick up any materials that they may need for the commissioned work. These materials do NOT come out of their pocket and they will NOT do the work or pick them up until a deposit is paid to cover the costs. My mother does commissions for crochet blankets and clothes and you'd be surprised how many people argue with her when she tells them that they have to pay at least half of the price upfront for the materials cost ( and then how angry they are that the materials are as expensive as they are becase they don't know what yarn costs ) and I'm over here just like 'yeah.... these suckers ain't cheap people. You want cheap then go to walmart and buy a $5 blanket.' it takes my mom a month or more to produce a single blanket with a moderate pattern. Complex jumps the time scale ( and price because it changes how much yarn is used ) and she still way under charges. She should be asking for at least $100-$150 but she only asks for $60 which just barely covers materials, not even technically the labor -.-

Exactly! I can understand if they're offering about half or between half and the full price in points and say that's what they have ( though I'm still skeptical that this is indeed 'all they have' sometimes ) but to come in and say 'I want one for 20 ' is a serious insult. 'here, have two dimes, now go do this work for me and slave (literally) for the next week on my commission' and I'm torn between laughing and telling them that this is not the 20's and curling in a ball and crying sometimes. You can't get a hair cut for 'two bits' any more, why would I give you art for 'two bits' ?

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hairama In reply to DestinedFuture [2015-03-11 05:11:48 +0000 UTC]

it's entirely up to the artists to do things. Sometimes it does take forever and sometimes you do have to have lower prices than you want in order to get things started (:

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DestinedFuture In reply to hairama [2015-03-11 12:38:32 +0000 UTC]

yah, thats how I feel, Im slowly ras=ising my prices (they are still under 10 dollars) but its working good.

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hairama In reply to xAtramentum [2015-03-11 03:06:40 +0000 UTC]

no problem <3

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hairama In reply to taivaankaarta [2015-03-11 03:06:49 +0000 UTC]

no problem hun ^-^

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Lunarlueur In reply to lovelyskylark [2015-03-11 03:31:03 +0000 UTC]

Flagged as Spam

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lovelyskylark In reply to Lunarlueur [2015-03-11 04:08:47 +0000 UTC]

I agree entirely!
Its this cycle where people just don't believe that they're good enough to be charging up to what their worth. They will force themselves to thinking that their art isn't good enough to actually get them decent payment.
(In my original reply, I meant to say charging more, not lowering xD) ugh keyboard.
It definitely makes sense, and especially for someone that needs to use this to make it as a living such as yourself.
It's something that needs to be able to support someone, which is difficult in itself in this day in age.

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